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hardware for proxy

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aldavx at gmail

Sep 9, 2008, 1:19 AM

Post #1 of 16 (361 views)
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hardware for proxy

Hello to all

I plan to implement a proxy server for apache. The idea is to act like a
firewall, proxy , load balancer and cache. It must serve around 2000
sites. The backend servers I don't know for now how many will be, but I
am prepare to start with 2 or 3 and in case of heavy load , increase
this number. My question is what hardware do you recommend for proxy. do
I need fast cpu's or lots of core's. In terms of ram the things are
clear : apache need ram. Do you recommend scsi or sata disks etc ?
If someone have experience or suggestions please give me a sign.
Thanks
Alex

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evert.lammerts at gmail

Sep 9, 2008, 1:27 AM

Post #2 of 16 (351 views)
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Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

Why would you start out with implementing a single point of failure?

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Alexandru David Constantinescu
<aldavx[at]gmail.com> wrote:
> Hello to all
>
> I plan to implement a proxy server for apache. The idea is to act like a
> firewall, proxy , load balancer and cache. It must serve around 2000
> sites. The backend servers I don't know for now how many will be, but I
> am prepare to start with 2 or 3 and in case of heavy load , increase
> this number. My question is what hardware do you recommend for proxy. do
> I need fast cpu's or lots of core's. In terms of ram the things are
> clear : apache need ram. Do you recommend scsi or sata disks etc ?
> If someone have experience or suggestions please give me a sign.
> Thanks
> Alex
>
>
>
>
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>

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aldavx at gmail

Sep 9, 2008, 2:10 AM

Post #3 of 16 (349 views)
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Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

Evert Lammerts wrote:
> Why would you start out with implementing a single point of failure?
>
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 10:19 AM, Alexandru David Constantinescu
> <aldavx[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hello to all
>>
>> I plan to implement a proxy server for apache. The idea is to act like a
>> firewall, proxy , load balancer and cache. It must serve around 2000
>> sites. The backend servers I don't know for now how many will be, but I
>> am prepare to start with 2 or 3 and in case of heavy load , increase
>> this number. My question is what hardware do you recommend for proxy. do
>> I need fast cpu's or lots of core's. In terms of ram the things are
>> clear : apache need ram. Do you recommend scsi or sata disks etc ?
>> If someone have experience or suggestions please give me a sign.
>> Thanks
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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>
"implement a proxy server for apache" it was just a way of speaking.
Allow me to reformulate : one or more proxy's like frontend balanced
from dns or other whay. My questions still remain
Alex

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ben.spencer at moody

Sep 9, 2008, 5:48 AM

Post #4 of 16 (350 views)
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RE: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

How active are the sites? How complicated is the "proxy" configuration? Are
the Proxies an SSL termination point?

Server uptime: 50 days 3 hours 56 minutes 39 seconds
Total accesses: 36316506 - Total Traffic: 1544.5 GB
CPU Usage: u468.16 s2336.35 cu0 cs0 - .0647% CPU load
8.38 requests/sec - 373.7 kB/second - 44.6 kB/request

Hardware:
Virtual Machine with 1G of ram. Really isn't working hard at all

Overview:
-) 2 major backend applications
-) Generally load balanced between 2 backend web servers
-) rewriting is being done for the one application
-) the Proxy/Load Balancer is being used for SSL termination for one of the
major applications (the application is almost 100% SSL).

Each site is different and there are many variables.

benji

Benji Spencer
System Administrator

Moody Bible Institute
Phone: 312-329-2288
Fax: 312-329-8961

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexandru David Constantinescu [mailto:aldavx[at]gmail.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:20 AM
> To: users[at]httpd.apache.org
> Subject: [users[at]httpd] hardware for proxy
>
> Hello to all
>
> I plan to implement a proxy server for apache. The idea is to act like
> a
> firewall, proxy , load balancer and cache. It must serve around 2000
> sites. The backend servers I don't know for now how many will be, but I
> am prepare to start with 2 or 3 and in case of heavy load , increase
> this number. My question is what hardware do you recommend for proxy.
> do
> I need fast cpu's or lots of core's. In terms of ram the things are
> clear : apache need ram. Do you recommend scsi or sata disks etc ?
> If someone have experience or suggestions please give me a sign.
> Thanks
> Alex
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server
> Project.
> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
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Attachments:

smime.p7s (2.87 KB)

aldavx at gmail

Sep 9, 2008, 6:43 AM

Post #5 of 16 (344 views)
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Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

Ben Spencer wrote:
> How active are the sites? How complicated is the "proxy" configuration? Are
> the Proxies an SSL termination point?
>
> Server uptime: 50 days 3 hours 56 minutes 39 seconds
> Total accesses: 36316506 - Total Traffic: 1544.5 GB
> CPU Usage: u468.16 s2336.35 cu0 cs0 - .0647% CPU load
> 8.38 requests/sec - 373.7 kB/second - 44.6 kB/request
>
> Hardware:
> Virtual Machine with 1G of ram. Really isn't working hard at all
>
> Overview:
> -) 2 major backend applications
> -) Generally load balanced between 2 backend web servers
> -) rewriting is being done for the one application
> -) the Proxy/Load Balancer is being used for SSL termination for one of the
> major applications (the application is almost 100% SSL).
>
> Each site is different and there are many variables.
>
> benji
>
> Benji Spencer
> System Administrator
>
> Moody Bible Institute
> Phone: 312-329-2288
> Fax: 312-329-8961
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Alexandru David Constantinescu [mailto:aldavx[at]gmail.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:20 AM
>> To: users[at]httpd.apache.org
>> Subject: [users[at]httpd] hardware for proxy
>>
>> Hello to all
>>
>> I plan to implement a proxy server for apache. The idea is to act like
>> a
>> firewall, proxy , load balancer and cache. It must serve around 2000
>> sites. The backend servers I don't know for now how many will be, but I
>> am prepare to start with 2 or 3 and in case of heavy load , increase
>> this number. My question is what hardware do you recommend for proxy.
>> do
>> I need fast cpu's or lots of core's. In terms of ram the things are
>> clear : apache need ram. Do you recommend scsi or sata disks etc ?
>> If someone have experience or suggestions please give me a sign.
>> Thanks
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>> The official User-To-User support forum of the Apache HTTP Server
>> Project.
>> See <URL:http://httpd.apache.org/userslist.html> for more info.
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscribe[at]httpd.apache.org
>> " from the digest: users-digest-unsubscribe[at]httpd.apache.org
>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-help[at]httpd.apache.org
>

hello Ben

Ther is no SSL involve what so ever.
The sites are very active (it is a share hosting environment and this is
the reason why I wanna try the proxy) and beside that we plan to expand.
We have between 50~300 reqs/sec (depend on time of the day) with around
10~20 kb/reqs and this is not the busiest server. Probably we need
something to hold around 5000 reqs/sec like a frontend.

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ben.spencer at moody

Sep 9, 2008, 7:04 AM

Post #6 of 16 (345 views)
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RE: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

> Ther is no SSL involve what so ever.
> The sites are very active (it is a share hosting environment and this
> is
> the reason why I wanna try the proxy) and beside that we plan to
> expand.
> We have between 50~300 reqs/sec (depend on time of the day) with around
> 10~20 kb/reqs and this is not the busiest server. Probably we need
> something to hold around 5000 reqs/sec like a frontend.

You have a much busier site then we are currently running. I don't have a
clue what our requests/sec are (apart from what server-status provides)
during any given time. The concurrent requests seem to peak out at about 120
split roughly 50/50 between the two major applications (which means about
35-45% are SSL) and the box doesn't have any issues and is (per vmstat --
forgot to mention it is a RHEL VM) 10-15% non-idle (user + sys + io wait =
10-15% usage). Currently, our proxy is performing some DNS lookups (DNS
isn't on the box its self) do to how some of the access restrictions are
done. I would assume that removing those would also lessen CPU usage.

benji

Attachments:

smime.p7s (2.87 KB)

aldavx at gmail

Sep 9, 2008, 7:21 AM

Post #7 of 16 (342 views)
Permalink

Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

Ben Spencer wrote:
>> Ther is no SSL involve what so ever.
>> The sites are very active (it is a share hosting environment and this
>> is
>> the reason why I wanna try the proxy) and beside that we plan to
>> expand.
>> We have between 50~300 reqs/sec (depend on time of the day) with around
>> 10~20 kb/reqs and this is not the busiest server. Probably we need
>> something to hold around 5000 reqs/sec like a frontend.
>
> You have a much busier site then we are currently running. I don't have a
> clue what our requests/sec are (apart from what server-status provides)
> during any given time. The concurrent requests seem to peak out at about 120
> split roughly 50/50 between the two major applications (which means about
> 35-45% are SSL) and the box doesn't have any issues and is (per vmstat --
> forgot to mention it is a RHEL VM) 10-15% non-idle (user + sys + io wait =
> 10-15% usage). Currently, our proxy is performing some DNS lookups (DNS
> isn't on the box its self) do to how some of the access restrictions are
> done. I would assume that removing those would also lessen CPU usage.
>
> benji

Thanks again Ben. My problem is that we wanna buy the hardware but we
don't know what are the week points of this environment , cpu, ram, IO etc

Alex

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solprovider at apache

Sep 9, 2008, 6:23 PM

Post #8 of 16 (334 views)
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Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Alexandru David Constantinescu
<aldavx[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Alexandru David Constantinescu [mailto:aldavx[at]gmail.com]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:20 AM
>>> To: users[at]httpd.apache.org
>>> Subject: [users[at]httpd] hardware for proxy
>>> I plan to implement a proxy server for apache. The idea is to act like
>>> a
>>> firewall, proxy , load balancer and cache. It must serve around 2000
>>> sites. The backend servers I don't know for now how many will be, but I
>>> am prepare to start with 2 or 3 and in case of heavy load , increase
>>> this number. My question is what hardware do you recommend for proxy.
>>> do
>>> I need fast cpu's or lots of core's. In terms of ram the things are
>>> clear : apache need ram. Do you recommend scsi or sata disks etc ?
>>> If someone have experience or suggestions please give me a sign.
>>> Thanks
>
> There is no SSL.
> The sites are very active (it is a share hosting environment and this is the
> reason why I wanna try the proxy) and beside that we plan to expand.
> We have between 50~300 reqs/sec (depend on time of the day) with around
> 10~20 kb/reqs and this is not the busiest server. Probably we need something
> to hold around 5000 reqs/sec like a frontend.

5000 reqs/sec @ 20 KB/req = 100 MB/sec = 1Gbaud. One gigabit network
connection might max out so you probably want two gigabit network
connections -- standard on most rack servers.

A recent single-core CPU is probably more than enough -- proxying is
not very processor-intensive. Bus speed is more important than CPU
speed.

SCSI is stable; SATA is new. One of the SATA hard drives in our most
recently purchased server died after a few weeks (and the RAID failed
to rebuild.) Everything should run in RAM if you really need
performance so drive speed only affects start times (unless this
server will cache too.)

500 MB RAM is probably overkill; a new server will have at least 2 GB.

A modern desktop computer should handle the expected load (excluding
the second network connection.) Use that server you just bought and
have not delivered. Install and load test. If you notice any
performance problems, adjust the specs for the new server. Start
inexpensive. You do not need the first server to handle future
capacity. When the first server slows even a little, you can move
half the websites to another server before deciding how to build the
ultimate system. Then you will have real performance numbers for the
decision.

solprovider

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aldavx at gmail

Sep 9, 2008, 10:58 PM

Post #9 of 16 (332 views)
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Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

solprovider[at]apache.org wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Alexandru David Constantinescu
> <aldavx[at]gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Alexandru David Constantinescu [mailto:aldavx[at]gmail.com]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 3:20 AM
>>>> To: users[at]httpd.apache.org
>>>> Subject: [users[at]httpd] hardware for proxy
>>>> I plan to implement a proxy server for apache. The idea is to act like
>>>> a
>>>> firewall, proxy , load balancer and cache. It must serve around 2000
>>>> sites. The backend servers I don't know for now how many will be, but I
>>>> am prepare to start with 2 or 3 and in case of heavy load , increase
>>>> this number. My question is what hardware do you recommend for proxy.
>>>> do
>>>> I need fast cpu's or lots of core's. In terms of ram the things are
>>>> clear : apache need ram. Do you recommend scsi or sata disks etc ?
>>>> If someone have experience or suggestions please give me a sign.
>>>> Thanks
>> There is no SSL.
>> The sites are very active (it is a share hosting environment and this is the
>> reason why I wanna try the proxy) and beside that we plan to expand.
>> We have between 50~300 reqs/sec (depend on time of the day) with around
>> 10~20 kb/reqs and this is not the busiest server. Probably we need something
>> to hold around 5000 reqs/sec like a frontend.
>
> 5000 reqs/sec @ 20 KB/req = 100 MB/sec = 1Gbaud. One gigabit network
> connection might max out so you probably want two gigabit network
> connections -- standard on most rack servers.
>
> A recent single-core CPU is probably more than enough -- proxying is
> not very processor-intensive. Bus speed is more important than CPU
> speed.
>
> SCSI is stable; SATA is new. One of the SATA hard drives in our most
> recently purchased server died after a few weeks (and the RAID failed
> to rebuild.) Everything should run in RAM if you really need
> performance so drive speed only affects start times (unless this
> server will cache too.)
>
> 500 MB RAM is probably overkill; a new server will have at least 2 GB.
>
> A modern desktop computer should handle the expected load (excluding
> the second network connection.) Use that server you just bought and
> have not delivered. Install and load test. If you notice any
> performance problems, adjust the specs for the new server. Start
> inexpensive. You do not need the first server to handle future
> capacity. When the first server slows even a little, you can move
> half the websites to another server before deciding how to build the
> ultimate system. Then you will have real performance numbers for the
> decision.
>
> solprovider
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
>
I appreciate your answer. Now I have a point to start.
Thank you all

alex

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uhlar at fantomas

Sep 10, 2008, 2:16 AM

Post #10 of 16 (331 views)
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Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

On 09.09.08 21:23, solprovider[at]apache.org wrote:
> 5000 reqs/sec @ 20 KB/req = 100 MB/sec = 1Gbaud. One gigabit network1

please don't mess bauds and bits per second. it's something very different.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baud

it's even 800, not 1000 Mbits per second...
--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar[at]fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
- Have you got anything without Spam in it?
- Well, there's Spam egg sausage and Spam, that's not got much Spam in it.

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solprovider at apache

Sep 10, 2008, 8:36 AM

Post #11 of 16 (329 views)
Permalink

Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

On 9/10/08, Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar[at]fantomas.sk> wrote:
> On 09.09.08 21:23, solprovider[at]apache.org wrote:
> > 5000 reqs/sec @ 20 KB/req = 100 MB/sec = 1Gbaud. One gigabit network1
>
> please don't mess bauds and bits per second. it's something very different.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baud

Thanks. Back in the modem days, baud was (correctly) shorthand for
bps. Wikipedia states that is no longer valid.

> it's even 800, not 1000 Mbits per second...
> Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar[at]fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/

Rough conversion (from the old days) was:
1 byte of data
= 8 bits on disk
= 10 bits of network traffic
= 13 bits of encrypted (SSL) network traffic
Data compression can reduce the traffic up to 50%.

Maintaining 800 MB per second without compression may completely fill
a gigabit network connection. The OP would want a second network
connection to avoid running at full capacity and handle spikes.

solprovider

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uhlar at fantomas

Sep 11, 2008, 12:51 AM

Post #12 of 16 (316 views)
Permalink

Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

> On 9/10/08, Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar[at]fantomas.sk> wrote:
> > On 09.09.08 21:23, solprovider[at]apache.org wrote:
> > > 5000 reqs/sec @ 20 KB/req = 100 MB/sec = 1Gbaud. One gigabit network1
> >
> > please don't mess bauds and bits per second. it's something very different.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baud

On 10.09.08 11:36, solprovider[at]apache.org wrote:
> Thanks. Back in the modem days, baud was (correctly) shorthand for
> bps. Wikipedia states that is no longer valid.

it was right only for 300baud/bps modems, all other had higher bit than
bayud rate ;)

> > it's even 800, not 1000 Mbits per second...
> > Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar[at]fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
>
> Rough conversion (from the old days) was:
> 1 byte of data
> = 8 bits on disk
> = 10 bits of network traffic

this was also correct in modem times. I don't think that network
(http/tcp/ip) headers cause that big overhead now :) Yes, it depends on size
of average requests... However we should count that into average size of
request...

> = 13 bits of encrypted (SSL) network traffic

Interesting, I guess that mostly applies to SSL handshake overhead. I don't
have the numbers but I guess encrypted text should not be much bigger than
non-encrypted.

Does somebody have the data?

--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar[at]fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
On the other hand, you have different fingers.

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solprovider at apache

Sep 11, 2008, 9:52 AM

Post #13 of 16 (309 views)
Permalink

Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

On 9/11/08, Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar[at]fantomas.sk> wrote:
> > On 9/10/08, Matus UHLAR - fantomas <uhlar[at]fantomas.sk> wrote:
> > > On 09.09.08 21:23, solprovider[at]apache.org wrote:
> > > > 5000 reqs/sec @ 20 KB/req = 100 MB/sec = 1Gbps. One gigabit network1
> > > it's even 800, not 1000 Mbits per second...
> > > Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar[at]fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
> > Rough conversion (from the old days) was:
> > 1 byte of data
> > = 8 bits on disk
> > = 10 bits of network traffic
> this was also correct in modem times. I don't think that network
> (http/tcp/ip) headers cause that big overhead now :) Yes, it depends on size
> of average requests... However we should count that into average size of
> request...

Network overhead is difficult to estimate. IPv4 adds 32-36 bytes per
packet; IPv6 adds 60-64 bytes per packet. Packet size has a large
effect -- smaller packets require more packets with more protocol
overhead ; larger packets waste more space in the final packet. Then
add non-data packets e.g. ACKs. My 25% overhead (2 bits overhead per
8 bits data) has produced reasonable estimates.

> > = 13 bits of encrypted (SSL) network traffic
> Interesting, I guess that mostly applies to SSL handshake overhead. I don't
> have the numbers but I guess encrypted text should not be much bigger than
> non-encrypted.

I once read that encryption added 20-30%. Modern streaming encryption
seems more efficient, but adds handshake overhead per transmission.
Again, my 30% overhead has produced reasonable working estimates.

> Does somebody have the data?
> Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar[at]fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/

Ditto. I would like better estimates, or at least more details to
support my current calculations.

solprovider

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linux4michelle at tamay-dogan

Oct 7, 2008, 2:35 PM

Post #14 of 16 (192 views)
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Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

Am 2008-09-10 11:16:22, schrieb Matus UHLAR - fantomas:
> On 09.09.08 21:23, solprovider[at]apache.org wrote:
> > 5000 reqs/sec @ 20 KB/req = 100 MB/sec = 1Gbaud. One gigabit network1
>
> please don't mess bauds and bits per second. it's something very different.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baud
>
> it's even 800, not 1000 Mbits per second...

Your calculation is based on ONE start-bit and one stop-bit

Do you know, that you can have 1 1/2 or 2 bits for the stop...
You can have even parity bits and other stuff...

Baud = TransferedBits - ControlBits

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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linux4michelle at tamay-dogan

Oct 7, 2008, 2:39 PM

Post #15 of 16 (192 views)
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Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

Am 2008-09-11 12:52:06, schrieb solprovider[at]apache.org:
> Network overhead is difficult to estimate. IPv4 adds 32-36 bytes per

You mean 40 Bytes because the MTU is 1500 Bytes and
a standard TCP header is 40 Bytes = 1460 Bytes (MRU)

Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening
Michelle Konzack
Systemadministrator
24V Electronic Engineer
Tamay Dogan Network
Debian GNU/Linux Consultant

--
Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/
##################### Debian GNU/Linux Consultant #####################
Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886
+49/177/9351947 50, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi
+33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com)

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uhlar at fantomas

Oct 10, 2008, 3:23 AM

Post #16 of 16 (183 views)
Permalink

Re: Re: hardware for proxy [In reply to]

> Am 2008-09-10 11:16:22, schrieb Matus UHLAR - fantomas:
> > On 09.09.08 21:23, solprovider[at]apache.org wrote:
> > > 5000 reqs/sec @ 20 KB/req = 100 MB/sec = 1Gbaud. One gigabit network1
> >
> > please don't mess bauds and bits per second. it's something very different.
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baud
> >
> > it's even 800, not 1000 Mbits per second...

On 07.10.08 23:35, Michelle Konzack wrote:
> Your calculation is based on ONE start-bit and one stop-bit

> Baud = TransferedBits - ControlBits

No. baud = signal change per second. One signal change can transfer less or
more than one bit. and I counted 1 byte = 8 bits, which is independent on
number of stop bits.

However this discussion is over for a long time. Could you read it whole
before you start reacting single mails?

--
Matus UHLAR - fantomas, uhlar[at]fantomas.sk ; http://www.fantomas.sk/
Warning: I wish NOT to receive e-mail advertising to this address.
Varovanie: na tuto adresu chcem NEDOSTAVAT akukolvek reklamnu postu.
Quantum mechanics: The dreams stuff is made of.

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